Anne: So, you just told me, Jesus, that you were a dreamer, that you got
DACA. DACA meant that you could apply for citizenship, and you went through
that process?


Jesus: Yes, like I was saying, growing up without your citizenship and just
as an illegal immigrant, you kind of get the feeling you're a criminal and
that's the kind of path. That's like, I don't know, you tell that to your
kid, "Hey you're illegal" and that's what they kind of start to think as
they get older. Like, “Don't trust authority, don't go to the police.” You
just get in this mindset of wanting to be a criminal because it’s just kind
of what path is chosen for you.


Anne: So did you become a criminal?


Jesus: I can’t say too much about that, but, you know, like most people,
yeah.


Anne: But what caused you to leave the U.S.?


Jesus: What caused me? I hadn't seen my dad in 15 years and, well, like
most criminals, the government starts turning some heads.


Anne: Were you detained and deported? Voluntary departure?


Jesus: Voluntary departure.


Anne: With voluntary departure did you appear before a judge?


Jesus: No, it was a really weird experience, was not expecting to walk past
and pay a nickel to get across the border, and also my phone line cutting
out as soon as I got across the bridge from El Paso. I was like, “I still
needed internet you know?” [Both laugh].


Anne: Who knew? When you walked over the border into Mexico, were you
greeted by Mexican authorities?


Jesus: A taxi. I got into Juarez and there were two taxi drivers just
standing there. The first person to greet me was a cholo he was just like,
"Hey what are doing, where you going?" I was just like, “Nope.”


Anne: So no assistance, you came with your own money I assume that you had
to...?


Jesus: Yeah.


Anne: So you have been back for six months?


Jesus: Yes.


Anne: You live in Mexico City now?


Jesus: Yes, yes.


Anne: Who do you live with now?


Jesus: I’m at a shelter. It’s not the first time, hopefully it's the last
time. [Pause]. I know the company’s got the best intentions though so…


Anne: Oh, you're waiting for a company that's—


Jesus: Well, New Comienzos to hook me up with a spot.


Anne: Since you have been back have you pursued any studies?


Jesus: Yes, I am currently going to enter into Hola Code, which is computer
programming.


Anne: That's cool. Do you think that you have special capabilities in that
area?


Jesus: Yes, yes most definitely.


Anne: That's great. Have you worked for pay since you have been back?


Jesus: Yeah, Teleperformance.


Anne: So it’s a call center?


Jesus: Yeah, a call center. Working for FedEx.


Anne: How much were you paid for your current or most recent job?


Jesus: 1,200 pesos a week.


Anne: Do you feel safe in Mexico?


Jesus: More or less.


Anne: Have you been a victim of a violent crime while you've been here?


Jesus: Since I’ve been here? No.


Anne: Do you feel more vulnerable as a returning migrant than you would've—


Jesus: No, I feel a lot less vulnerable here, a lot more accepted.
[Chuckles]


Anne: Do you still have family living in the U.S.?


Jesus: Yes, yes.


Anne: So, you have your mom?


Jesus: Yes.


Anne: Anyone else?


Jesus: Just all her sisters and brothers in the United States.


Anne: Any siblings?


Jesus: Yeah, my brother and my sister. Then my whole dad's side of the
family is over here.


Anne: Are any of your relatives U.S. citizens?


Jesus: My brother.


Anne: He was born there?


Jesus: Well, no, he was born here. Oh, and my sister too. My brother was
born in Mexico.


Anne: But he became a citizen?


Jesus: Yes, just recently.


Anne: So, it’s your brother and your sister?


Jesus: Yeah.


Anne: Have they come to visit you?


Jesus: No.


Anne: You haven't been here too long. Maybe they'll come to see you.


Jesus: No, no. I don't know, I was...like I said, was kind of a criminal
for a while and burnt all those bridges.


Anne: So you're estranged?


Jesus: Well I told them it's probably safer for all of us if I kind of just
[Whoosh noise].


Anne: I’m sorry.


Jesus: I was like, “I’ll just kind of build my own life and then when I'm
ready I'll contact you guys.” You make some mistakes in your life and you
don't realize that at some point you can't really turn back, and you know.
It’s just a little bit safer to not turn back to your family.


Anne: Do you feel like it would be unsafe to go back for you?


Jesus: Most definitely.


Anne: Okay, do you think they would ever think of coming back to live in
Mexico?


Jesus: Uh, probably not, no.


Anne: Do you currently follow U.S. news now?


Jesus: Yes, most definitely.


Anne: And again, is it through the same kind of sources that we talked
about before?


Jesus: Yes, U.S. politics are just, they're fun.


Anne: I'm not sure if they're fun. [Laughs].


Jesus: With Donald Trump you're just like, "Whoa what is going on, why is
he saying that?" [Both laugh]. Again, he's just a talking head. A lot of
people don't realize that.


Anne: Do you think you will return to the United States some day?


Jesus: No, I want to see South America, Central America. I got really into
the whole contras and all that stuff during the 80's with the CIA scandal.
I just kind of want to see how it’s left all these countries south of
Mexico. That's the whole reason I came down here.


Anne: I see. You're the traveler?


Jesus: Yeah.


Anne: So, you want to travel south?


Jesus: Yeah, everyone tells me it’s dangerous. They're like, “It gets more
dangerous the further south you go.” I was like, “Well you only get one
life you know.”


Anne: Yeah, they say it’s pretty dangerous in that Northern Triangle, in
Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. But some of the other places aren’t
as bad. Do you currently participate or volunteer in Mexico?


Jesus: Right now, I am, yeah.


Anne: With New Comienzos?


Jesus: Yeah.




Jesus Eloy


Narrator




Anita Isaacs


Interviewer


(Follow-up interview 5 months later)




June 5, 2019


in Mexico City, Mexico




Anita: So, have the past few months been difficult for you?


Jesus: No. It's actually been a lot easier.


Anita: So, things have gotten better then?


Jesus: Yes, yes.


Anita: What's gotten better?


Jesus: I finally got my own place to live at. I have a job, so that's cool.
And at my job, I get to speak English and Spanish and it's optional, both
languages.


Anita: Great. So, when we saw you, what were you doing? You were
unemployed?


Jesus: I was unemployed. I had just gotten to Mexico City, so it was a
little difficult. [Chuckles].


Anita: What about your social life, has that gotten better?


Jesus: Yeah, it has. I opened up a lot more. I got into a relationship.
Recently, just got out. So, it was like the doors closed on me real quick,
and now I'm more outgoing, a little bit more open to everything.


Anita: So, you're single again?


Jesus: Yeah.


Anita: Has anything gotten worse? Being single? [Laughs].


Jesus: Being single. [Laughs]. But yeah, other than that...


Anita: Looks like everything worked out.


Jesus: Yeah.


Anita: So, have you become aware of any programs that help returning
migrants?


Jesus: Yeah. I went with Israel to some meeting where it was like all the
other big programs that actually help people out. And it was kind of
amazing to see that there was like nine or ten different people
representing their own associations and stuff.


Anita: So, these were sort of non-governmental programs, or were they...?


Jesus: As far as I know, yeah. Non-governmental.


Anita: Okay. What kind of programs? Do you know what they were about? Do
you remember their names?


Jesus: I know a few of them. I don't know them by name. But I know some of
them were centered towards helping women returning, some of them were just
centered towards helping migrants from southern countries.


Anita: Sort of economically, psychologically...?


Jesus: Yeah, just everything. Pretty much what New Comienzos does, but ours
is more centered towards United States returnees and deportees. Some of
these were more centered towards the specifics, like just women, women
abused, stuff like that. So, that was pretty cool.


Anita: Have you gotten any assistance from any of these programs?


Jesus: From New Comienzos, yeah.


Anita: Have you taken any classes or enrolled in an educational program
since we talked?


Jesus: I was taking a computer programming and hacking course, but I got
sick. I got really sick.


Anita: Oh, no. What happened?


Jesus: I moved to the biggest city in the world. Well, one of the biggest
and it was just a matter of time until I got sick. Yeah. I got really sick.


Anita: Stomach problems.


Jesus: Well, it was like a flu, and it was just all these things. I was
shaking really bad and I was throwing up all the time. It just makes sense.
Moving from the small town that I was in—well, I guess I was in Chihuahua
at first, and coming here—twenty-four million people. I was bound to get
sick, eventually.


Anita: Yeah. So, do you currently have a job?


Jesus: Yeah. Yes.


Anita: How many hours do you work?


Jesus: Let's see. Three, four, five, six, nine times five. Forty-five.
Forty-five hours. Forty-five or more.


Anita: How much are you earning?


Jesus: It's a commission-based structure, but we're making US dollars in
Mexico.


Anita: What's the job?


Jesus: Just being a carrier, connecting semi loads to semi drivers.
[Chuckles]. So just kind of being a broker.


Jesus: Yeah. And then, pretty much doing that. It's a little tough, because
you got to wrap your mind around the entire industry. You're not just
connecting one person to another. You have to understand all the standards
and what the drivers want—connect with them on a personal level, if they're
going to go see their families over the weekend.


Anita: Who do you currently live with?


Jesus: By myself right now.


Anita: Which of your relatives live in Mexico? Do your grandparents live
here?


Jesus: Mexico City, or Mexico the country?


Anita: Mexico the country.


Jesus: My dad's side of the family.


Anita: So, grandparents on your dad's side?


Jesus: Yeah.


Anita: Anybody else, other than grandparents? Do you have any brothers and
sisters who live here? Your parents are in the States?


Jesus: Yeah, well my mom's in the States with her family.


Anita: Your dad?


Jesus: He's down here. Yeah. Chihuahua.


Anita: No children?


Jesus: No, not yet. [Laughs].


Anita: Partner? That was last week.


Jesus: Yeah. [Laughs]


Anita: How long has it been since you broke up?


Jesus: Yeah, about a week. How did you know?


Anita: You said you broke up!


Jesus: You're following me around. [Laughs]


Anita: You said you broke up.


Jesus: No, we're trying to work things out. We did hang out last night, but
it's just two different cultures. It's hard to kind of wrap your mind
around being in a relationship, especially when my Spanish is más o menos.


Anita: Yeah.


Jesus: And trying to communicate trust. Because we have two different
standards of trust too. Because I come from a small town, and she's—well
this huge city so communication's different, cultural-wise and also, I
don't know. A lot of different factors into it.


Anita: So, she's Mexican?


Jesus: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


Anita: That's really interesting, because I hadn't thought about that. So,
sort of in a relationship, how does that cultural difference manifest
itself?


Jesus: Cultural differences? Like I said, she's from the big city too, so
it's not just the cultural difference, but it's like a big city cultural
difference too. I don't know. I come from a small town where you don't
really hang out with your ex. You're not really connected with the people
that did you wrong because everybody in the town knows each other. Why are
you going to go and hang out with this person? Especially when you're
dating someone else. Why would you go back with your ex? But this is such a
big city, and it makes sense that you wouldn't want to... It's so easy to
get lost here so why would you want to lose connection with somebody you
already know? I don't know if that makes any sense. So then for me, it was
like, 'Why are you still talking to your ex?" So, a little bit of jealousy
on my part, but then a little jealousy on her part too. Because whenever
she'd see me talking to another girl, even if it was work related, it was
like, "Why are you talking to her?"


Anita: I'm also curious whether living in the States and having
relationships in the States makes you approach your relationship
differently than a Mexican woman would. And what are those differences?


Jesus: The differences that I've noticed so far, I feel like coming from
the States and being binational, I'm quicker to move on in the
relationship. It's like, "Oh, let's move in together." Over there, you're
more independent, there's more money, so you're more willing to get your
own apartment and be like, "Hey, just come stay at my place." And then they
stay for a week or two. And over here it's like, "Oh hey, come and stay at
my place." And they're like, "No, I can't do that, because my mom, this and
that." And moving in with your partner here, is pretty much like getting
married. So, it's a big cultural difference there too.


Anita: The other thing I was wondering about was sort of machismo?


Jesus: Machismo?


Anita: Do you think that growing up in the States—I don't even know how to
ask the question.


Jesus: You can ask it either way.


Anita: Like I don't even know. Are you different from other Mexican men in
a relationship kind of is the question.


Jesus: Yeah. That's the difficult thing, is not only am I binational and
Hispanic, I'm from the north of Mexico. A lot of my culture from the north
over there, it's really about machismo. And I was like, "Oh man." Over
there, the reality is still women being abused, and all that stuff. So,
when I tend to drink, sometimes I get angry and I started getting
aggressive and like I told my ex, I was like, "I can't drink, I can't
drink. Not with you." We tried drinking a few times, and things just kind
of got out of control. She would become controlling, and then I'd start to
get angry. I start to see my dad's side inside of me. And I'm just like,
"No, this just can't happen." So, that's where we were running into issues
too. And coming from the States, I was raised in the Pacific Northwest and
there's a big movement for Civil Rights and stuff over there too, women's
rights and equality. So, I have a lot of those same mentalities still, like
respect women, try and keep things fair. But then over here, I feel like
women have been brought down so much, that they want to see how much more
they can get.


Jesus: It got to a point where I was being controlled on who I could hang
out with, what I was doing, where I was going, and then I was like, "Whoa,
this is too much. I got respect for you, but you can't yell at me because
there's a girl in the same room as me."


Anita: I guess in the States too, that was different. Right? So, the women
are different.


Jesus: Yeah.


Anita: What you're saying is, because you told me—it's interesting that you
found programs that were interested in women's rights, sort of. That sounds
like more of an Americanized guy almost. But what you're also talking about
is, maybe women in the US are less possessive, or understanding more. What
do you think?


Jesus: Like I said, [Sigh], over here, and I hate to say this, it's like
law is lawless. Israel has brought this up before too. 1% of crimes get
solved here. The reality is, if a husband gets mad at their wife, whatever
amount of violence he brings onto her, chances are it's not going to get
resolved, and not quickly and it's not going to be fair way. So, I just
feel like—oh wait, what was the question one more time? Sorry about that.


Anita: I was wondering whether women are more jealous or possessive here
than in the States?


Jesus: Yeah. So, I feel like up in the States because the laws are more
fair, if you hit a woman up in the States, the law's going to come down on
you. Regardless of whether or not you actually did hit them, or didn't, the
law's going to come down, and it's going to take it down on the man
whatever way possible. And so, women over there are more willing to be
like, "Hey, you know what? You're messing around with this other girl. I'll
go mess around with someone else." So, it's safer for them. They can go out
to the club and be like, "This guy, he doesn't mean this. So, I'm going to
go out with my girls, hook up with another dude.” Over here, if they try
and do that, sometimes you get the issue of where the guy gets jealous and
like I said, the crimes don't get solved here very quick, so...


Anita: They get away with more.


Jesus: They get away with more. That's a really harsh reality is that I
think women live in fear here. The possibility that, "I can't go out to the
club and hang out with my girls, just in case the guy thinks something."


Anita: Yeah. Also, I'm just thinking that when I grew up, I could hang
around with guys, and my boyfriend would say, "Okay. They're just your
friends." They accepted it. I wonder whether—that's also what I was trying
to ask—whether girls are more possessive.


Jesus: Yeah, definitely. That's the weird thing. That's what was weird to
me in this relationship. I just let her, "No, you can hang out with your
friends. Go on ahead. Go- bye." Even with their ex, I was like, "I really
don't like it." We argued about it for a few weeks and I was like, "You
know what, you're from a big city. I just don't understand. I'm not seeing
the world through your eyes, but I'm going to just let it go. Go on ahead,
if you want to hang out with him." And she would hang out with him every
once in a while. And it was kind of eating me up inside. And then, like I
said, I got drunk one day, snagged her cell phone, and I was like, "Let me
go through this really quick." And she had erased all the messages with her
ex.


Jesus: I was just like, "Whoa, what are you doing?" And then I snapped out
of it, “I can't be drinking around you. I can't believe I did that. That's
not me. That's not who I am.” But then, I had already given her a reason to
be like, "Wow, you're going to get violent, and snag the phone out of my
hands." And I'm just like, "That's not who I am."


Anita: So, you're bicultural in that respect too. [Chuckles]


Jesus: Yeah. You can see where I was fighting myself that time. Just like,
"Give me it." "No. Sorry. Here you go." And then, it was like I blocked
everything out. Forget that she'd deleted the messages, but then it kept
eating me up inside. Like, "What'd you delete? What'd you delete?"
[Chuckles]. I don't know. I just never brought it up. It's like I wanted to
know what was on those conversations, but then again, I was like, "What am
I going to gain from that?" And I had been talking to my ex, the first two
months we were together, and I felt really bad. I wasn't going to delete
the messages because I wanted to show her. I wanted enough time to pass by
and be like, "Hey, this might hurt us, but I want you to know that this was
what I was doing." She waited until I was asleep, grabbed my phone and
unlocked it, went through it, took pictures of all our conversations and
then kept using it against me. I was like, "What are you doing? And you're
weaponizing something that I was going to show you. I didn't delete it for
a reason. If I wanted to hide it from you, I would have just deleted it."


Anita: Would that have happened in the States, all of this?


Jesus: Easily. [Chuckles]. Yeah. I think a girl would have grabbed my phone
immediately. Just waited until I fell asleep. But I don't know. Honestly, I
feel like over there, you're more comfortable, because you know that you
can both go and screw around, if it comes down to that. Over here, they're
constantly thinking like, "He's going to do something." It's weird. I
almost feel like it's part of the culture for men to be more able to do
whatever they want, and women just be at the house. It's a part of the
culture that I don't really like. I don't really enjoy it because there's a
lot of fear. I don't know if that made sense. [Chuckles].


Anita: It makes total sense, total sense. And it's something that I just
hadn't really had the opportunity to talk about. So, do you have siblings
who live here?


Jesus: No.


Anita: So, no children, no partner for the moment. Aunt, uncles, cousins
live here, in Mexico? Not Mexico City, but Mexico?


Jesus: Yeah.


Anita: Are you in contact with any of these people?


Jesus: No, but my mom's going to be coming down soon.


Jesus: She said my aunt and uncle are running for Presidente Municipal de
Durango, so I don't know. Maybe I'd heard it wrong, but I don't know.
That's kind of cool. It means that my family has got political ties and
stuff.


Anita: Wow.


Jesus: That's cool. Yeah. My mom's like, "Just so you know, your family's
bigger than you think. And when I come down there, I want to explain it to
you." So, I'm excited. [Laughs].


Anita: That's pretty emotional.


Jesus: Yeah.


Anita: Do you know when?


Jesus: I'm not sure. Not a hundred percent. She just got her residence, so
that's good. I was like, "Congratulations. You made it."


Anita: That's really great. So, your mother lives in the US. Who else of
your relatives live in the US?


Jesus: My aunts, uncles, my brother, sister.


Anita: No children?


Jesus: No children, that I know of.


Anita: So, you're in touch with your mom, obviously. Are you in touch with
your brothers and sisters?


Jesus: No.


Anita: With your aunts or uncles that live in the States?


Jesus: Yes.


Anita: Are you considering going back to the States?


Jesus: No. Maybe. I don't know. [Chuckles] It's like, "Why make the same
mistake twice?" I kind of want to see Canada. I want to see different
countries.


Anita: Why Canada?


Jesus: Why Canada? Because it's a cleaner United States, so I've heard. I
don't know if it is. I hear a lot of people say Canada's like the United
States, but it's greener. There's more forest, and it's cleaner, and the
crime's not as bad. I feel like America's my standard now, and I either
want to go better, or see what's gotten worse, go further south. See these
countries that are suffering from organized crime and stuff.


Anita: Canada's nicer too.


Jesus: Yeah. So, I've heard.